|
Post by suboptimaldan on Jul 3, 2015 9:16:26 GMT
Let rip with your opinions of what we know about GW's upcoming Age of Sigmar...
Personally I ain't buying it and I ain't playing it. Long live 8th edition!
|
|
|
Post by underscore on Jul 3, 2015 10:20:15 GMT
My initial response was that it's the game I wish 40k was - light, simple skirmish rules that allow for a lot of running and gunning.
Then I read the bit about 'measure from the model' and promptly facepalmed. At least the box art is a nice throwback, I guess...
|
|
|
Post by suboptimaldan on Jul 3, 2015 10:31:53 GMT
What do you mean by measure from the model?
|
|
|
Post by underscore on Jul 3, 2015 11:07:05 GMT
The way they got around the basing issue was to say 'ignore the base'. So now you have to measure from the closest point on the model to see whether you're in range to hit - so if someone has a long spear, that gives them the reach advantage. No idea what some Dwarfs are going to do against those new Bloodthirsters in this case, or what happens to scenic bases.
Also the rule that no _part_ of the model can move more than the movement value, meaning that if a dragon with wide wings wants to turn to face an enemy it'll cost a huge amount of movement points to do it... but if they just moonwalk their way over there it's fine. It just feels really strange.
|
|
|
Post by suboptimaldan on Jul 3, 2015 12:04:28 GMT
It's got to the point where I'm actively hoping this falls on it's arse. Looking at the miniatures and the names of some of the Sigmarite Minis, they are basically Space Marines in all but name. 'Lord Excelsior' and the like etc. It's a totallt shameless attempt to cash in, and I wouldn't be surprised if the miniatures are used interchangeably with 40K at some point.
I think GW have shot themselves in the foot - many people who love fantasy, do so because we love it for it's history and background etc. sweeping that away and expecting people to then take up this substandard skirmish game when there are better alternatives on the market (WarMachine and Malifaux etc) I think means that they will completely lose the adult market to those games. Arrogant to assume 'we're GW, we can easily create a cool skirmish game like those johnny come lately's' when in actual fact by the look of the rules - they can't! So they get rid of all the stuff that was binding us to fantasy, and people like me who tended to love it DESPITE the impenetrabilty of some of the rules and the silly marketing will be lost.
Now more than ever, they will be dependent on a small amount of teenage boys with rich parents to sustain them!
Having said all that, if they release miniatures that still fit within the old WFB aesthetic, I may still buy a few here and there, but I can't see myself investing heavily in this misguided and avaricious change.
|
|
|
Post by underscore on Jul 3, 2015 13:39:47 GMT
But then the point of this release is that you don't have to invest at all to try it out - the AoS rules and Warscrolls for their old 8th Edition units will all be online for free tomorrow, from what I can tell.
In many ways the intent makes sense for some section of the adult market - game length, army size (as in, how much I need to carry) and expanding rules complexity are all big issues with the mass battle system as it is/was, for my situation at least. Really this should've been perfect for me - just a couple of issues with the rules (the measurement and the army building, or lack thereof) are stopping me from being too positive.
As far as the setting goes, in all honestly 18 years ago I would've cared. But getting back into it after a 15-or-so year break I didn't really recognise the world any more anyway. The models were nice, so it didn't bother me, but this just felt like a mercy killing more than anything. At least the Total War game managed to get made before the switch!
|
|
|
Post by suboptimaldan on Jul 3, 2015 14:23:55 GMT
|
|
|
Post by underscore on Jul 4, 2015 9:23:03 GMT
Well, the rules and 8th edition compendiums are out: www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiumsCertainly needs some advanced rules (though rumours seems split on the subject at the moment) - at the moment I can't see anything that allows Heroes to join units to hide from shooting and a Chaos/Death Wizard can currently summon an entire army in a single magic phase [ Edit: Ignore that, I missed the spell limit listed on the warscroll for each Wizard ]. Pity, really, I actually quite like some of the changes they made to Skaven.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 10:00:14 GMT
The way they got around the basing issue was to say 'ignore the base'. So now you have to measure from the closest point on the model to see whether you're in range to hit - so if someone has a long spear, that gives them the reach advantage. No idea what some Dwarfs are going to do against those new Bloodthirsters in this case, or what happens to scenic bases. Also the rule that no _part_ of the model can move more than the movement value, meaning that if a dragon with wide wings wants to turn to face an enemy it'll cost a huge amount of movement points to do it... but if they just moonwalk their way over there it's fine. It just feels really strange. Joining in from a position of ignorance just for fun ... Can't see a problem with it factoring in reach - you shouldn't easily be able to poke someone in the eye with a biro* if they have a bloody big spear. And surely a dragon with massive wings would be slower to turn than move backwards/forwards because of drag on the wings? *other, better, more inventive eye stabby pens are available from all good quil makers...
|
|
|
Post by suboptimaldan on Jul 4, 2015 10:34:01 GMT
I think I'm going to need to find myself a new hobby. Fly fishing doesn't appeal, and neither does building a Ship in a Bottle. I've never rage quit anything before..
|
|
pip
Junior Member
Posts: 55
|
Post by pip on Jul 4, 2015 11:45:21 GMT
Regarding the measuring distance thing, it works both ways. Someone can kill you by stabbing your outstretched sword.
Not to mention the problems with models that are small compared to their bases. It's quite possible to be forced to overlap bases in order to be in reach. And I have no idea how infantry are meant to fight a Phoenix up on its big flying stand.
I've read through the lizardman warscrolls and had a skim of the others. AoS to me looks like a few interesting ideas wrapped in a game that comes pre-broken.
WFB becomes unbalanced if you put a lot of energy and expertise into list-building (or outsource that to the internet) and your opponent doesn't. AoS actually needs you to put the same amount of effort in to balance it before you play. Pick-up games are pretty much impossible, you have to consult in detail with your opponent about what you're both going to bring or it will rapidly get one-sided. And every unit is so loaded with special rules, many of which buff other units in complicated ways, that it's going to be difficult to agree on what balances what. Kids starting AoS are going to get into such fights about each others' "cheesy" armies even if they both did their level best to play fair.
It's got formations that encourage core units (which I thought WFB needed) and it's given non-wizard characters lots of buff-dispensing abilities so that they are more leaders/commanders than superheroes (which I also hoped to see in a non-existent 9th edition), but the framework those plus points come wrapped in is so half-arsed it's barely even a game. Some things like shooting into/out of combat seem like they're just there because they couldn't be bothered to write any more rules.
I'd like to give it a try, both to see if it's as difficult to play as it looks on paper, and to play it with the kind of benefit-of-the-doubt house rules that veteran gamers will surely adopt (pre-agreed armies in some kind of limited framework, measure from bases, ignore "joke" rules like the HE formation that lets you re-roll ones if you can hold a snooty expression for a phase). Maybe it's a fun beer-and-pretzels game. Maybe. But that's two things I can't eat or drink anyway.
|
|
|
Post by rolandmurat on Jul 4, 2015 11:52:26 GMT
Like Pip,I'll give it a go. Mainly because I'm not good at understanding games without playing them.
It does look like it has some serious issues though - here's my hundred bloodthirsters. Deal with that
|
|
|
Post by underscore on Jul 4, 2015 11:53:35 GMT
Joining in from a position of ignorance just for fun ... Can't see a problem with it factoring in reach - you shouldn't easily be able to poke someone in the eye with a biro* if they have a bloody big spear. And surely a dragon with massive wings would be slower to turn than move backwards/forwards because of drag on the wings? *other, better, more inventive eye stabby pens are available from all good quil makers... Yeah, as usual there's the beginnings of an idea in there - but when you don't have to turn to face to move you can just have a dragon sidestep to charge into combat which is just a little odd. But really the main issue I have with it is that it works kinda alright if you just take the models as GW produce them, but if you want to customise them then there's much more room to 'modelling for advantage'. Is it better to model a dragon's wing up, for example, or to make a pose tighter and closer to reduce surface area, have a flying unit further up to Dwarves can't reach them etc? And the idea of measuring stuff in 3D is a bit of a pain too - I don't particularly like the idea of trying to fudge around with tape measures amongst someone's carefully painted models. Edit: I also agree with most of what Pip says - I'd like to try it (I see more of a chance of me playing this as a smaller game than a mass battle system) but I really, really want to see some kind of army building rules. Otherwise it's just too much of a pain in the arse.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 11:55:32 GMT
And the idea of measuring stuff in 3D is a bit of a pain too - I don't particularly like the idea of trying to fudge around with tape measures amongst someone's carefully painted models. You need desktop flagpoles and string...
|
|
|
Post by tkaic on Jul 4, 2015 19:25:56 GMT
For me there are some good points:
1)Lovely models - I know the Space Marines in 40k is an issue for some, but I like the Chaos marauders a lot
2)Free rules - got to give some credit for that, even if they are...light on detail
3)Sillyness - I was getting a bit bored of big spells and unkillable blocks of elves chopping everything to pieces in their path. While the 'pretend to ride an invisible horse' will wind up some people, there are some excellent touches in the new rules, particularly in the Skaven scroll...the fact the BSB can stab his general in the back to promote himself is excellent.
Downsides have been amply discussed - list building and measuring are the key ones for me.
I was thinking of buying a box if anyone is after the Sigmarites?
|
|