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Post by suboptimaldan on Aug 5, 2015 12:36:13 GMT
I saw Pip mention that he was playing 9th Age, so I had a gander at the rules, although by no means an in depth one.
Seems to me they've changed a lot of stuff that maybe didn't need changing and takes some of the colour away? For example Giants are now VERY cheap at 140 pts but appears to have been nerfed somewhat and had their colourful 'falling over' rules taken away. I don't remember these being an example of where 8th ed had lost it's way....
Also Foot of Gork appears to have lost it's hilarious 'stomp another unit' rule taken away, replaced by a drab increase in strength when you cast the higher level. I wasn't aware this was breaking the game in the same way as Dwellers Below or Purple Sun etc?
It seems like a load of quite po-faced people have taken a hatchet to WFB rather than just correct the more egregious balance and rules issues. Am I correct?
Currently suffering WFB and Quest withdrawal symptoms in Bath and itching to give KoW a go, hence my post - 5 more weeks till i can play - GAH!
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pip
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Posts: 55
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Post by pip on Aug 5, 2015 17:04:02 GMT
It's currently an alpha release, and every army-book specific change bar Beastmen has been very specifically called out as a temporary patch just covering some of the most salient points. Giants in particular are probably being changed purely for consistency with how they're being tweaked in the Beastman book (their first "showcase" for army rebalancing). Will miss special giant attacks if they go but certainly won't miss Foot of Gork's multi-stomp! Played more than one game where that's utterly wrecked me purely because my opponent can roll lots of 4s in a row. Sure in lots of games it does nothing but that doesn't really make it any less unfun in the game where it goes nuts - effects like that are only really "balanced" if you play the same opponent with a very high frequency. One of the scarier weapons in the O&G gunline's arsenal if you ask me. I have high hopes that 9th will bring O&G back to doing in-yer-face tactics well when they do the O&G revamp. My first impressions are that they are doing a fantastic job of lifting up the neglected armies (i.e. beastmen so far) and quashing the filth (e.g. changes to magic, price hikes for Beasts of Nurgle, Warlocks et al). If they simplify things a bit to help them balance things I don't begrudge them that, and I imagine the complexity will gradually creep back as they find their footing with each round of changes. They're already talking about bringing back vampire Bloodlines for one. They have a forum specifically for feedback - if you want to lobby for tipsy giants please do! warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=98
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Post by suboptimaldan on Aug 6, 2015 9:45:15 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this but it does seem like the people who want to squeeze the fun, random aspect of Warhammer out of games are in the ascendant here. We all know the egregious stuff that needed fixing, why not fix that and see what happens before tampering with every other aspect of it? Or apply the fixes to the main rules, leave armybooks alone and see what happens? If steadfast is negated by disruption, this could have big effects on units even before you decide to recost them or nerf them.
I guess I had hoped it was a fix, whereas their mission statement seems to be create a totally new 9th edition. It sounds I know like special pleading for my army, but even the well balanced 6th ed still had random giant rules and foot of Gork.
Also without completely restructuring the O&G book I don't know how you get rid of the gunline, except for getting rid of cheap warmachines. Denying the orcs a destructive spell which is totally in keeping with their fluff ain't the answer. If 9th age ends up like any other wargame then there won't be much point playing it, as opposed to Kings of War.
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pip
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Post by pip on Aug 6, 2015 21:21:37 GMT
It's easy to say that, but I bet if you started listing things there'd be several points on which even like-minded chaps like us would disagree. Foot of Gork's already come up as one of them!
I don't have the 6th ed O&G book handy, but the 7th ed version was simply D6 S6 hits on any unit. No template, no multi-wounds, no multi-stomp. Foot of Gork as it stands is very much an 8th edition Death Spell.
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Post by suboptimaldan on Aug 7, 2015 21:51:54 GMT
Hmmm - I can't confirm either 6th or 7th but I'm pretty sure it dates back from 5th ed, possibly under a different name - I want to say Gork's Warpath? So I disagree about it being a 8th ed death spell.
And it causes WOUNDS. Does not remove models. You get your armour and wards against it. I have no problem with it, nor the 8th ed armybook spells like The Maw or the Little Waagh vortex, and any others, because they don't just remove models! But I can see we won't agree. Everyone has their own agenda they'd like to see implemented and I doubt it'll please anyone at the end of the day.
I suspect 9th Age wont be for me, as they're clearly seeking to reign in the crazy that made Warhammer fun to play. If I want a balanced rules system with little to no crazy, I'll go to Kings of War. I was hoping that they'd just fix 8th ed minimally, rather than go all out to produce 'the tournament edition'.
I'll only say that in however many years I've played Orcs and Goblins, I can probably count on the fingers of one hand, the number of times Foot of Gork won me games.
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pip
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by pip on Aug 7, 2015 22:24:29 GMT
Right, but that's what I was saying before - the fact that it's balanced over many, many games doesn't stop it being poor design in the games where it goes wild. That opponent doesn't get to immediately play you six more times to see the dice even out. That opponent just has to suck it. As for causing wounds/removing models... when it comes to regular units (i.e. fair play - not the horrible deathstars that mega spells are supposed to be a counter to), a S6 D3 wounds hit is pretty much the same as "take it off". Against Saurus, Foot and Purple Sun are both "dead on anything but a 1".
Anyway, I reckon if you're looking for crazy Quest is where it's at!
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Post by suboptimaldan on Aug 8, 2015 10:56:41 GMT
Yeah....kinda wanted to be able to embrace 9th age though.
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Post by rolandmurat on Aug 8, 2015 17:13:15 GMT
It might just be a case of giving it a go and seeing how it plays. On a separate note Dan, have you seen there is a warhammer quest card game coming soon?
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